2004 FORUM ARCHIVES

2004 FORUM ARCHIVES
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Problem: Date:12/30/2004 Time: 1:41:34 AM

Like I said, READ what was THE CONSTITUTION.
No one else seems to care anymore about FIRA.

I question your Replies:
1. Proxy voting has not been allowed for a number of years now, remember.
2. You are correct on article 11 it does say 2/3 of the majority of active
members in attendance shall constitute a quorum for the
transaction of association business at a meeting.
Does that include Rule changes?

Date:12/24/2004Time:11:21:11 AM
To FIRA members,
All this talk about changes, what rule did we change? Please be specific. We did not change the constition. The only rule we addressed was helmet, that was updated for safty reasons, the rule only effects Jim Bass & myself, both of which were at the meeting. The minor adjustments to the scoring of heats was nothing more than the continuation of the adjustments we made during the year, which hopfuly will improve the fairness in the race for the championship. As for Kieth Greenfield voting, all in atendence agreed he could vote for his son. Being that when they joined in 2004 Grant was a minor, his dad being the car owner an parent would make all dessions for the team. As for the officers being board members also, thats just the way it turned out for this year. The two carryover board members resigned thier posts. So we had to vote in all new ones. As for race dirctor the President & Vice President will assume the respon sibilites of that office. Scoring will be done buy the trac
The officers this year have committed to help improve FIRA during the 2005 season, please step up to help.
Vern Brown President

Problem: Date:12/22/2004 Time: 11:01:38 AM

How did 12 people change the rules and constitution at the meeting on Dec. 04?
Only 10 of those present were paid members.
There were 28 voting members (24 cars) in FIRA in 2004 but only 35% of the
paid membership were present.
Referenece constitution: page 17 article 11 & page 18 article 13.
I don't believe that was the 51% required to make rule changes or ammend the
constitution?
Why wasn't a new meeting scheduled?

December 22, 2004 11:48 AM
To answer this e-mail, the member list I had showed 25 members in FIRA
in 2004, we had 12 people at the meeting 10 which were paid members, but
Kieth Greenfield had a proxy from Grant. So the voting count was 11
members present, 11/25 = 44% member present. Article #11 states 51% of
the active members in good standing OR 2/3 of the majority of active
members in attendance shall constitute a quorum for the transaction of
association business at a meeting.. 2/3 of the members present is 7 ,
if a motion had at least 7 votes it passed.
If the person who asked the question wants to talk about a a rule
please give me a call (608) 849-8703 eves.
Thanks for your concern Vern Brown President FIRA

December 22, 2004 1:06 PM
Just for the record, I want all Pro 12 haters to know that it wasn't me
stirring the pot this time, however, it was a valid point. Happy Holidays
to all.
Don Fort

December 22, 2004 2:44 PM
Read all of article #11, not just the part you want. It states 51% or 2/3 of members in attendance.
Where were you! If you as a member cannot bring yourself to sign your name to your e-mails then "SHUT UP", because you are part of the problem. It is my opinion that this e-mail was sent by a disgruntled member that only wishes to cause grief and has no interest in being part of this organization or racing with us in the future.
Jim Bass

December 22, 2004 5:09 PM
I also inquired about a quorum at the meeting since we did not have 51% of
the membership present. It was pointed out that the rule requires 51% of
the membership OR a 2/3 majority of members in attendance to transact
business at a meeting.
p.s.
An interesting observation:
The numbers required to take any action this year mathematically worked out
to be the same in either case.
If 51% of our membership attended to make a quorum, it would only require a
simple majority to pass a motion. A majority of 51% of our membership would
be 8 members.
Because only 11 members were present (which is not 51%), it then required a
2/3 majority. Two-thirds of 11 in attendance is 8 members.
Theoretically, it would be possible for two people to make any decision, if
only three people showed up for a meeting. However, it would not be in
anyone's best interest to do that (certainly not FIRA, and especially not
the two who would choose to make any decisions - imagine the grief they
would get).
A curious clarification:
How many members did we have this past year? The email mentioned 28. I thought we had 26.
And who were members? Apparently there is some question regarding the status
of those present at the meeting. Twelve were present, but Dave (from Team
Greenfield) did not vote because he was not a member.
If only ten were paid members then the number required to take action would
have only been 7. Then again if we only had twenty six members the simple
majority of 51% of 26 is also 7.
Doug Farrell

Date:12/23/2004Time:6:36:56 PM
Hi all, Just for the record. We are not the ones that sent the last post ( no one from team nelson). We do read all the rule book as to why we mentions some of our concerns. On the other side Happy Holidays to all and Hope for a good race season next year.
Harry

According to the 2004 records there are 27 voting members from 24 cars.
They are=
Bass, J - Brown, V- Burgner, R - Deboer, D - Farrell, D
Fort, D - Gillentine, N - Greenfield, G - Hautzinger, D - Heath, D
Hibbard, C - Howard, K - Kevin, P- Kevin, J - Losch, K
McNulty, K - Nelson, M - Palma,T - Reitz,W, Ritchey,E
Rosenfield, G - Rudolph,J - Schmidt, B - Wallace, A - Weber, K
Zeilinga, K- Zweifel, C.

Parliamentary Procedure
Majority - A majority, in parliamentary procedure, refers to the number of votes needed to pass a motion. A simple majority is one more than half the voting members. A 2/3 majority requires that 2/3 of the votes be in favor to pass the motion.

So, if 27 people are voting, 14 yes votes would be needed for a majority.
If 10 or 11 people are voting 7 would be needed for a 2/3 majority.
The two articles referenced,

51% of the active members in good standing or 2/3 of the majority of active members in attendance shall constitute a quorum for the transaction of association business at a meeting.

This Constitution may be amended or added to by a petition requiring the signature of 51% of the active members in good standing. The proposed amendment being submitted in writing at a regular meeting. It shall be read and voted on at the next meeting. A 2/3 vote of all active members in good standing at that meeting shall be required to pass an amendment
Lame Duck Webmaster.

Problem: Date:11/15/2004 Time: 9:36:57 PM

Hi, Just wanted to say have had lots of fun in FIRA and have gotten to meet some great people. They know who they are.
There have been ups and downs along the way and have taken them in stride. Latey the downs have gotten to way to much and as most do know where that has lead.
There have been some bad things that have come about with the club lately and some more showed up with the end of the season but hey to no supprise did see them coming. As some were still the same.
Funny there are rules set yet they seem to have always been read through the grey area and Saturday night was no different.
Just wanted to say thanks to the ones that have helped us in the past.
Harry

Suggestion: Date:9/28/2004Time:1:00:26 PM
Rules Meeting... look at having two meetings for the rules.

Meeting #1 would be a session to throw out ideas, discuss issues that have affected the club in the past, work on ideas for future seasons, etc. After Meeting #1, the Secretary could distribute the minutes of the meeting as well as what topics are to be voted on.

Meeting #2 would be held 1-2 weeks later to vote on the issues that were covered at Meeting #1. Once all rules are voted on, elections of new officers/board members would take place. After Meeting #2, a time limit should be set for the new rules to be approved by the board and posted on the FIRA website.

I feel that by having 2 meetings and by letting the members know what issues are being voted on as well as time to think and make rational decisions, we will have a better member turn out for the voting portion (people do not like sitting through 5 hour bicker sessions)... It seems that a lot of the voting is done by emotion and sometimes out of frustration just to move on to the next topic. I feel that if more members are involved in the rules meeting and a clearer understanding of what is being voted on, we will have less chance for misinterpretations and/or misunderstandings as issues come up, as well as rules that most, if not all, members are happy with.

Question: 9/27/2004 Time 8:00 AM
How do we put the "club" back into FIRA, The Club?

Comments: Date: 8/29/2004 Time:8:16:40 PM
We would like to send out a "Thank You" to a couple of people who made the last points race of the 2004 season more enjoyable.

1st to Mrs. Greenfield - Thank you for the awesome cupcakes and rice krispie treats, luckily we were able to get a few of them away from Keith!!

2nd to Mr. Bass - Thank you for providing the door prizes at the last couple of races, it gave all of us a chance to win even if it wasn't on the track!!

Also, congratulations to Deron Deboer on winning "Rookie of the Year"!

Don & Tara

Pro #12

Comments:Praise1 Date: 8/29/2004 Time:10:43:40 AM
I would like to take this time to say a few things about this season. First I would like to say that it has been a pleasure to be your race director. I would like to congratulate Vern for being points champion. I would also like to congratulate Deron for rookie of the year. I appreciate all the patience and help provided to me considering it was my first time doing this. For the most part I feel this season was a success. I hope that those of you that have come to FIRA continue and for those of you who have concluded racing with FIRA it was nice to have you this season. Keep in touch. God Bless all of you and your families and have a good off season.
Sincerely, Pat Mulcahy, Race Director

Comments: Date:8/28/2004Time: 8:31:48 AM
Just kind of curious when and if the videos and pitures from Rookie day will be posted on the site??
(by the way, Great job with the site)
Kelly Team Nelson

No videos or pictures from Rookie day have ever been sent in?
(Thankyou, I enjoy doing it).
Wally FIRA web

Reply: The FIRA video from Rookie day is still being
edited and should be ready for the banquet.
Mike Owner/Driver Team Nelson #41

Comments: Date:8/24/2004 Time:4:55:16 PM
I would like to take a minute to thank the members of FIRA. Special thanks to Don Fort and Keith Howard. Your willingness to help has made racing possible, and safe.
Thanks again, Looking forward to 2005.
Chris Hibbard #33

Question:Date:8/8/2004 Time:1:15:54 PM
yea i run in the namra indy's and i was wondering if i could come and run with u guys at some events that we could race at when we dont have a race.
racer75x@aol.com

Reply: I say, "Come on Down!" (of course the car would meet our safety
requirements, and the driver is not suspended from NAMRA or any other racing
body). Better tell him to hurry, we only have three races left (unless we
get dates for the two rain outs that didn't get rescheduled).

Doug (Board of Directors)

Question: Date:7/9/2004 Time:10:18:36 AM
What happened to our fira t-shirts
why were they sold for different prices to different people.I was told they were 12 dollars each.

Reply: The FIRA t-shirts are sold for two prices Quantities of 1-5 $12.00/Each Quantities of 5 or more are $10.00/Each
These prices were established when the shirts were received and there is a sign in the trailer where we sell the t-shirts. The prices were not reduced for certain individuals; everyone has paid the same amount based on quantities purchased. We have only given away (2) t-shirts at no charge – (1) Marty Langenberg Photography (They did all of the photos for the club to use at no charge) and (2) Alternative Century (They did the all of the FIRA decals, Heat & Feature winner stickers, and banner at no charge). T-Shirts are available at every race; see Rob Burgner or John Zeilinga to purchase.
Please feel free to contact me directly with any question or if you would like to order any t-shirts and have them pre-packaged and delivered to the next race.

Question: Date:6/27/2004 Time:10:21:59 PM
Do we know when the equipment for the tech inspectors will be in? The reason I ask is because we are 4 races into the season and still not teching anything to do with engines. Will it be fair to start enforcing this in mid season?

Answer: NO & YES.

Comments: Date:6/21/2004 Time:2:35:20 PM
"To comment, E-mail FIRA button, Other: "survey"
This is an informal survey to provide input to FIRA.& it's members.
Replies will be tallied and held confidential. Hopefully some conclusions will be presented at a future date."
Why will this information be held confidential? This information should be made available to all members via the forum or e-mail. If a person wishes to remain anonymous they can do so.Based on the fact that the survey was posted the members should get to see the results... Just a thought.
From:?
The use of the word "confidential" only meant that replies would not be posted in this forum, but instead forwarded to the creator of the survey so that some conclusions may be reached regarding the directions FIRA members want to pursue.
Anonymous replies to a survey such as this do not necessarily, always have the best interests of FIRA in mind.
I believe Phil Groebe, the creator of the survey, will make the results and replies available to FIRA members at a later date, after sufficient replies are received to draw some conclusions.

Subject: Rules Date:6/13/2004 Time:5:48:31 PM
I am just checking on the rules of the heat. If I remember correct at the rules meeting the idea of odd even for the heats was to be a trial to see how it goes and if it works out for good racing. Granted there has only been acouple of races but. If you figure it out, the top two qulifyers could by rights win the heats most of the time depending on breakdowns and crashes. It pretty much leaves the slower cars with a little chance except for being inverted. I think the old way of the top fast cars in one heat and the bottom slow cars in the second heat. Seems for a little closer racing. Just my input.
Name:?
It was a rule change.
Originally there was a pro & pro-am heat. But with the lack of pro-am cars appearing it was necessary to make them slow & fast heats which meant that the winner of the "slow" heat was scored behind the last place car in the fast heat and was credited & paid accordingly.

Reply1: Date 6/14/2004Time 11:18:20 PM
Ok the answer in blue sheds new light on the subject. Thanks
When the number of cars in both classes becomes acceptable, then we would probably revert back to a pro & pro-am heat.

Reply2:Date 6/16/2004 Time12:54:59 AM
I think the odd even heat races are perfect, it mixes up the racing. Because lets face it, it will be the same car being the fastest of the slowest week after week after week.

Date:6/9/2004Time:12:00:25 AM
To all or any Fira Tech Inspectors what kind of tech if any was performed on the #10 and #37 cars at Lake Geneva Raceway on Saturday night 6/05/04
At that time there was some necessary equipment needed that is still on order.
Wally Reitz (tech)

Subject: Curiosity survey
Date:5/18/2004 Time:11:51:13 AM
1) are you happy with the 15 or so race dates or would you like more?
2) Would like to race at race tracks other than those we race at now?
3) If so, how far would you pull?
100 miles, 200 miles 300, miles or ?
4) Are you happy with the current FIRA rules?
5) If not, what changes would you like to see?
6) Overall, from 1 to 10, rank your concern for FIRA's future, 10 being best
Thanks, phil G
To comment, E-mail FIRA button, Other: "survey"
This is an informal survey to provide input to FIRA.& it's members.
Replies will be tallied and held confidential. Hopefully some conclusions will be presented at a future date.

Question: 5/12/2004 time11:29:44 AM
Does anyone in your racing group still run KBS cars ?
I do like your sight, the movies are a great way to get a feel for how fast your cars go.
Chris Smith cjsmith5@aol.com
To my knowledge there are no KBS cars presently running in FIRA.
The Predator is currently the predominant manufactured car. There are still quite a few custom or privately built chassis.

Subject: Tech Inspection
Just a note on some areas where there seems to be confusion, the rules are pretty clear and to save your time in searching for them, I will copy them here or you can look them up if you wish.
BATTERIES - Batteries are to be mounted in a secure and protected battery box, away from the fuel cap filler area, and properly vented. Terminals must be covered against accidental sparking. FIRA recommends the use of "GEL CELL" or a totally sealed type battery that will not leak under any circumstances.
STEERING - Shall be of a suitable design, in proper working order and adjusted for maximum safety. All steering bolts, nuts and axle nuts must be tightened and safety wired or cotter keyed.
All bolts used in a stress area such as steering or suspension must be of Grade #5 as a minimum. Chain, cable or belt linkage is prohibited.
SUSPENSION - Any design suitable for racing speeds and stresses. The total cost for one car set of spring units and shock absorbers must not exceed $800. No independent rear suspensions allowed. All fasteners that attach suspension components to the frame, spindle or axle must be safety wired, cotter keyed, or pinned to prevent unintentional loosening. The Technical Inspector can disqualify any suspension deemed unsafe.

Please understand, this is not a personal attack of anyone's work. Most of what I saw were minor problems that were missed in the rush to make the practice or a misunderstanding of what was required.
These rules have evolved over the years from actual incidents that have occurred in this and other forms of auto racing and are there for everyone's protection, no one wants to see anyone hurt for a few dollars and a little time.
Wally, one of three Techs Thanks Kenny, it has been a few years.

Subject: Pro-Am
The question came up, how will the Pro-Am cars now running in Pro class be scored?
They will be scored as Pro cars for the seasons point fund and Pro class awards Most improved, Best appearing etc.
They will have to meet all other rules such as participation etc.
In addition as long as they registered as Pro-Am cars and do not change the engine that qualifies them as Pro-Am they will be scored by the Secretary for a Pro-Am trophy 1st through 5th or whatever number of registered Pro-Am cars up to 5, Right now we have two. They will be awarded at the year end banquet.
We are presently one class. The Formula Indy Racing Association Pro Series.

Comments:5/3/2004
To those individuals who questioned my request that they safety wire the (3) bolts mounting the steering wheel; excerpt, (abbreviated), 2004 rule book, page 8 paragraph 8:
STEERING - "All steering bolts, nuts and axle nuts must be tightened and safety wired or cotter keyed."
Thank you for your compliance
Wally Reitz FIRA Tech

Editorial & Question: 4/22/2004
Allowing Fuel Injection in 2005?
I know of one person who, at this time is seriously looking into the application of Fuel injection on a 4-stroke engine and I know him and he does have safety in mind.
As everyone in FIRA knows I was & am against allowing FI. in FIRA.
My reason, simple. The inherent danger of high-pressure, electrically driven fuel lines on our racecars
As anyone who has been around for any amount of time knows, Racecars Crash!
I have seen & had fuel tanks punctured, and fuel lines cut or torn off in accidents.
Currently the engine stops running and the fuel drips or runs out, dangerous, yes. But not near as bad as a pump that is driven electrically under high pressure, near a heat source with a driver securely strapped into the car.
Presently we have no requirement to carry on board fire suppressants or any form of break a way or fuel cut off system.
The auto manufacturers have systems built in to limit or stop fuel pumping in case of an accident! What are we doing to prevent an incident? Who will accept the responsibility of an accident if 3-5 gallons of ignited gas, under high pressure is sprayed on another competitor, track worker or the spectators?

I would like to hear some input on this subject.
Wally Reitz FIRA #8

Reply1: Date:4/23/2004Time:9:57:12 PM
I believe that some people might be getting the wrong impression as to
what is pressurized on the fuel system. It is not the entire fuel tank and
all of the fuel system. It is only the part from the pump to the injection
in the throttle body. The fuel up to the pump is still gravity fed or
suction fed just the same as in our present systems. Yes if the line from
the pump to the injection is cut there will be a greater amount of fuel
sprayed out and thus a concern do to the volume and heat source. Our cars
are equipped with a shut off switch and in the event of accident that might
be that bad most in our club are smart enough to kill the car thus ending
pumping. Then we are back to the same amount of fuel leakage as we have now.
Maybe the board should be called to add a rule that any car with F. I. have
a mandatory fire extinguisher on board. Just a thought.
Harry, Crew Chief Nelson Racing #41

Reply2: Date:4/24/2004 Time: 8:54:04 AM
Regarding the potential of fire and fuel injection systems, the simple addition of an inertia switch in the fuel pump circuit will solve the problem of pump run-on after impact...these are found on fuel injected cars and aren't that expensive. Fuel injection is different that we are accustomed to and accordingly will require different safety considerations. Fuel injection is good not bad.
Phil Groebe, (bill-der / de-zin-er ; )

Comment, reference above replies 4/26/04 pm
Harry,
Most fuel injection systems require an in-tank, electrically driven pump, high pressure, high volume and constant flow, not just on demand, (gravity feed? Where are you putting the fuel tank!)
This has nothing to do with being "smart enough" It has to do with safety.
(1) More than one driver has been knocked unconscious through no fault of their own. (2) With the pressures these system require there may not be enough time for anyone to react. Cars with F.I. should, probably be required to have an automatic fire suppressant system not just an extinguisher. I'd also like to see dry brake connections required (see 2 above).
Phil,
Inertia switches work fairly well on passenger cars. But on our cars which aren’t supposed to make contact (but they do, Virginia). Anyone ever drove an early Ford, Lincoln or Mercury product with F.I and an inert switch? Most automotive switches are very sensitive even some of the smooth tracks we run or a bump from another car would shut them down.
Finally, "good or bad" that's an opinion, my concern is safety and cost effective racing (which of course is an oxymoron like HONEST politician & JUMBO-shrimp)
Wally FIRA #8 Web-stirer.

Subject Other: addition to history Date: 3/11/2004 Time:10:57:32 AM
Wally & Phil (one L) you guys did a great
job of our race cars history but where is
the winning chassis and trick car of Dick
Hautzinger with all of its' championships
I have photos if you want them.
Bob C. (Former Prez, Owner/Driver, PR etc.etc.etc)
Good to hear from you Bob,
To answer your Questions.

Subject: FIRA/Namra Date:3/5/2004 Time:1:53:33 PM
yes i was wondering on the weekends that namra does not have any races i was wondwering if we could come down and race on the weekends with fira Contact requested
Jack(NAMRA)
I have just received notification from AOL that the e-mail address (racer76x@aol.com) is unknown to them so you could not be contacted as requested.
Wally

From the FIRA RULE BOOK:
A temporary permit to run with this association, at one event is allowed. IF THE CAR AND DRIVER MEET F.I.R.A RULES. The said temporary permit would cost $30.00 for car and driver plus all other entry fees, per event. If that person decides to join the association within one week after the temporary permit was issued, only the points earned would be applied to a full membership, not the fees.

In addition to the above FIRA rules Rockford Spwy. requires all drivers to be NASCAR LICENSED to race at Rockford.

Problem: Date:3/2/2004 Time:8:22:55 PM
Web Site, i can not get into the Membership Form page tonight...
Rob B #21

Rob, I can't find any problem at the server end, seems to work fine.
If you have a POPUP BLOCKER it will also block separate windows.
Many pages & links on this site open in a separate window.
If you wish to view those pages you must find out how your software will allow those pages to open. Sometimes holding down the "Ctrl" key while clicking on the link will work.
Hope this helps.
Wally

Comments: Date:3/2/2004Time:4:35:16 PM
FYI, In the Drivers page the photo for Bill Schmidt comes up as Jim Bass.
Dave Lemmenes

Thanks Dave. I did try to e-mail the address you supplied to thank you but it wouldn't go through.
Anyway thanks for pointing that out, it should be correctly linked now. That is, if my mind hasn't completely turned to mush?
Wally
PS. At the present that is the only photo I have, hope to get more very soon

Comments: Date:3/1/2004Time:9:08:14 PM
I would like to thank Barb and Wally for the great BIO they did on me for the drivers page. I had my sponsors contact me about it already. They were extremely happy to see their names up on our site. So thanks for the time you put into this web site- it is appreciated.
See you at the races.
Don #12